I stumbled onto your page by accident (Or perhaps not). This was a supremely interesting read. Thank you for introducing me to Ellis Potter. This quote really stayed with me:
"So the more research they do, the more they realize that physical research does not lead to the shape of reality. It leads to uncertainty. They want to be materialists, but they’re not really convinced."
I have watched how deeply ingrained the materialist worldview has become among my peers and family. I spent most of my life there, too. What's so fascinating is how deeply people believe in it, even as their certainty is constantly being undermined. We want so desperately to believe in something that gives us a solid footing that we will reject anything that might threaten this worldview, even as it is crumbling around us.
Yet just as I noticed the doubt within me, I see it in the eyes of others. How we decide to grapple with that will decide our collective futures, I think.
Interesting interview :) , my first experience was after praying as my last hope to a God i did not believe in yet. As he said i did not build on that experience so it quickly became a memory. Afterwards I went into zen and advaita which gave me more similar but less powerful experiences.
What i now realise is that zen and advaita made me disinterested in everything around me. Now i realise God is Love and creation is here to be loved, which is more a romantic viewpoint but it feels much more real and truthful, sure it produces suffering. But our God suffered on behalve of us so we don't get to tap out of reality by becoming empty vessels.
That’s an interesting point about feeling more “disinterested”. I recall reading one study on the effects of meditation, which found that people reported feeling closer to people in general, but not to the actual people in their lives. I don’t know if the study was ever replicated, but it still gave me pause for thought about how going into oneself excessively through meditation might create a perception of closeness to others, or other powerful perceptions, that are not clearly yoked to actual things outside the self.
I can relate a bit to that, i felt maybe closer because i was less distracted by my own mind. But the closeness was more a form of being present, but not necessarily with more love, it did not make me care more about people in my live or people in general. I became increasingly disinterested in the world we live in, it just felt like a facade. Following Christ makes me much more aware of my relationships and how i should act with love.
Thank you for this insightful conversation. I look forward to reading some of the book titles.
While baptized in the Orthodox Church, I wandered into Zen Buddhism reading a book by Suzuki in my early twenties. A passage in the book really did a number on me. It went something like, “What was the song of the bird before the bird was a bird?” What were trees called before we started naming them? An inquiry into being opened up... I asked some co-workers what language was before it was language and they stared at me dumbfounded. Their world view excluded a possibility of language before language.
Then, followed Yogananda’s autobiography and “The Second Coming of Christ”.
Now, in my forties, life has taken me back to Christianity thanks to a dear fiend, the subject of my last documentary film. He was an orthodox priest rooted in his faith, but lacking entirely the zeal of religious ornamentation. He has since passed, but the impression he left continues to transform me.
Your writing here inspires and informs this continues transformation. Thank you.
I too had a youthful period of fascination with Zen, and I can still see value in some aspects of it: gentle attention, minimalism, simplicity, ordinariness (despite the emphasis on enlightenment). Still, there is a complexity and beauty within the Christian faith that feels more real and human to me.
I’ve been so grateful to know Ellis as a friend partly for this reason. He still gives talks at L’Abri, both in Switzerland and in England. His late wife, Mary, was also closely connected to the Schaeffer family.
I’m listening to Ellis Potter’s talk on YouTube. He keeps talking about the “illusion of diversity” which leads to suffering. But it’s not the illusion of diversity - diversity is real, the world is real, and it really is made up of an infinite variety of phenomena. Of which I am one. The illusion is the illusion of separation, that I am somehow different from and separate from everything else - and that illusion is what the serpent offers Eve and Adam, the beginning of ego consciousness. Whereas in reality everything is part of one single process, the manifestation of God’s infinite love and creative activity. And my sense of myself as separate and alone, my ego, is, as the Buddhists say, empty. “Let them all be one, as I and my Father are one” is not a vain hope, it is a description of reality.
Yes! Zen and Christianity are not mutually exclusive and ultimately what either one points to transcends both fingers of both traditions. I find the article interesting but not compelling
Fascinating. I just met a man I didn't know existed and am stronger for it. Truth is a relationship; extraordinary. How God leads a man to Himself never ceases to amaze.
I'd like to add, after reading many of the comments, that the relationship aspect mentioned here is fundamental to the bhakti/devotional experience. Our spiritual path begins with sambandha jñana, knowledge of our relationship with God and the world He created. Basically, the realization Mr. Potter describes here: the deep conviction that we are His creatures, bound to Him eternally by love and service.
By the way, I was verbally abused by some Christian scholars here on Substack recently, for suggesting that it was contradictory for a Christian to flirt with Advaita, as seems to be the trend in some circles. Devotees of Krishna have been making the same claim Mr. Potter eloquently expresses here about the lack of relationship in Buddhism (which can be easily applied to Advaita also) for years -even centuries!-, but these scholars found the argument to be reductionist. It isn't: it's just the plain statement of a self-evident truth.
Interesting. I really liked his testimony. It is authentic. Perhaps answer the questions he mentioned on searching for spirituality. I often wonder as a Christian who attends a reformed theology church if I’m in a social club. In other words are their professed Christians who are blind to who Jesus is. I include myself too.
I would venture to say that truth cannot be separated from relationships. That's when "truth" gets dangerous. And when relationships are separated from truth, they get dangerous too.
I find it interesting that there seems to be a false dichotomy between the two presented by Potter.
With regard to relationship, my own teacher (who is from a zen background but wrote a book on Christianity and zen and he himself wouldn’t say his teaching is “zen” but outside of label)
He himself said “All of life is relationship”
I think it’s fair to inquire as to whether Mr. Potter took zen all the way through to its ultimate realization
It’s not some lifeless thing and especially is not self centered. It’s ultimately the death of the self and what’s left is the clarity that all is God. There is still your human life and self but no separation between any of it. All phenomena are seen as expressions of God, some might use a different word but the words are irrelevant.
Meister eckhart was aware of this truth. Christianity and zen are not necessarily mutually exclusive. They have significant room for intermixing and I myself practice a great deal of both.
The view that you describe is perhaps the predominant interpretation of Zen. I think Potter’s interpretation is interesting precisely because it deviates from it, and in ways that are fairly unique, and that are not simply conceptual but arise out of a long life devoted to various spiritual paths. He might not have taken it “all the way”, but I don’t know many people who have, other than the Buddha. Still, I appreciate your reflections here.
Of all of the Christian paths, probably Orthodoxy and certain types of Catholic practice have some elements loosely similar to Zen, particularly the idea of “communion” with absolute reality. Communion isn’t quite “union”, but the aspect of experiential connection with an absolute is there. The book The Mountain of Silence by Kyriacos C. Markides is a good exploration of this side of Orthodoxy.
Anyway, thanks again for reading and commenting, Grant. I sometimes feel inclined to write more about this topic, but I worry it’s too abstract for many readers.
Thanks for the response! I’d love to hear more on this topic if you do choose to eventually publish something around it.
Are you familiar with the Christian sect of Hesychasm? I find this to be an interesting intersection. Name comes from Greek “Hesychia” meaning stillness or quiet. Stillness is often described as our true nature or at least a fundamental aspect of it, in zen
Edit: and to add, it’s not about as I said a self centeredness or isolation from life or any of that meaningless crap that sometimes gets peddled in nondual/advaita circles.
It’s actually, when lived, a total intimacy with all of life. A full inhabiting of one’s gift of Life.
I stumbled onto your page by accident (Or perhaps not). This was a supremely interesting read. Thank you for introducing me to Ellis Potter. This quote really stayed with me:
"So the more research they do, the more they realize that physical research does not lead to the shape of reality. It leads to uncertainty. They want to be materialists, but they’re not really convinced."
I have watched how deeply ingrained the materialist worldview has become among my peers and family. I spent most of my life there, too. What's so fascinating is how deeply people believe in it, even as their certainty is constantly being undermined. We want so desperately to believe in something that gives us a solid footing that we will reject anything that might threaten this worldview, even as it is crumbling around us.
Yet just as I noticed the doubt within me, I see it in the eyes of others. How we decide to grapple with that will decide our collective futures, I think.
Yes, society has been deeply massaged (and messaged) with the materialist worldview, and it’s sunk right into our bones.
Interesting interview :) , my first experience was after praying as my last hope to a God i did not believe in yet. As he said i did not build on that experience so it quickly became a memory. Afterwards I went into zen and advaita which gave me more similar but less powerful experiences.
What i now realise is that zen and advaita made me disinterested in everything around me. Now i realise God is Love and creation is here to be loved, which is more a romantic viewpoint but it feels much more real and truthful, sure it produces suffering. But our God suffered on behalve of us so we don't get to tap out of reality by becoming empty vessels.
That’s an interesting point about feeling more “disinterested”. I recall reading one study on the effects of meditation, which found that people reported feeling closer to people in general, but not to the actual people in their lives. I don’t know if the study was ever replicated, but it still gave me pause for thought about how going into oneself excessively through meditation might create a perception of closeness to others, or other powerful perceptions, that are not clearly yoked to actual things outside the self.
I can relate a bit to that, i felt maybe closer because i was less distracted by my own mind. But the closeness was more a form of being present, but not necessarily with more love, it did not make me care more about people in my live or people in general. I became increasingly disinterested in the world we live in, it just felt like a facade. Following Christ makes me much more aware of my relationships and how i should act with love.
Thank you for this insightful conversation. I look forward to reading some of the book titles.
While baptized in the Orthodox Church, I wandered into Zen Buddhism reading a book by Suzuki in my early twenties. A passage in the book really did a number on me. It went something like, “What was the song of the bird before the bird was a bird?” What were trees called before we started naming them? An inquiry into being opened up... I asked some co-workers what language was before it was language and they stared at me dumbfounded. Their world view excluded a possibility of language before language.
Then, followed Yogananda’s autobiography and “The Second Coming of Christ”.
Now, in my forties, life has taken me back to Christianity thanks to a dear fiend, the subject of my last documentary film. He was an orthodox priest rooted in his faith, but lacking entirely the zeal of religious ornamentation. He has since passed, but the impression he left continues to transform me.
Your writing here inspires and informs this continues transformation. Thank you.
I too had a youthful period of fascination with Zen, and I can still see value in some aspects of it: gentle attention, minimalism, simplicity, ordinariness (despite the emphasis on enlightenment). Still, there is a complexity and beauty within the Christian faith that feels more real and human to me.
Thank you for sharing. I’m always interested in hearing from people who have been converted by Francis or Edith Schaeffer.
I’ve been so grateful to know Ellis as a friend partly for this reason. He still gives talks at L’Abri, both in Switzerland and in England. His late wife, Mary, was also closely connected to the Schaeffer family.
I enjoyed this conversation, thanks for sharing it!
Brilliant! I didn't know Mr. Potter's work, but found this little teaser fascinating.
Interesting. I enjoyed the interview. Thanks for posting.
I’m listening to Ellis Potter’s talk on YouTube. He keeps talking about the “illusion of diversity” which leads to suffering. But it’s not the illusion of diversity - diversity is real, the world is real, and it really is made up of an infinite variety of phenomena. Of which I am one. The illusion is the illusion of separation, that I am somehow different from and separate from everything else - and that illusion is what the serpent offers Eve and Adam, the beginning of ego consciousness. Whereas in reality everything is part of one single process, the manifestation of God’s infinite love and creative activity. And my sense of myself as separate and alone, my ego, is, as the Buddhists say, empty. “Let them all be one, as I and my Father are one” is not a vain hope, it is a description of reality.
Yes! Zen and Christianity are not mutually exclusive and ultimately what either one points to transcends both fingers of both traditions. I find the article interesting but not compelling
Fascinating. I just met a man I didn't know existed and am stronger for it. Truth is a relationship; extraordinary. How God leads a man to Himself never ceases to amaze.
What an interesting interview! Definitely need to check out more Ellis Potter. The opening reminded me of my favorite human beatitude by Nietzsche:
“Blessed are the sleepy ones, for they shall soon drop off.”
I'd like to add, after reading many of the comments, that the relationship aspect mentioned here is fundamental to the bhakti/devotional experience. Our spiritual path begins with sambandha jñana, knowledge of our relationship with God and the world He created. Basically, the realization Mr. Potter describes here: the deep conviction that we are His creatures, bound to Him eternally by love and service.
By the way, I was verbally abused by some Christian scholars here on Substack recently, for suggesting that it was contradictory for a Christian to flirt with Advaita, as seems to be the trend in some circles. Devotees of Krishna have been making the same claim Mr. Potter eloquently expresses here about the lack of relationship in Buddhism (which can be easily applied to Advaita also) for years -even centuries!-, but these scholars found the argument to be reductionist. It isn't: it's just the plain statement of a self-evident truth.
I have read through this twice, and have no idea what Mr. Potter is talking about. I'm not sure that he knows either.
Interesting. I really liked his testimony. It is authentic. Perhaps answer the questions he mentioned on searching for spirituality. I often wonder as a Christian who attends a reformed theology church if I’m in a social club. In other words are their professed Christians who are blind to who Jesus is. I include myself too.
Yes, there are. A blind alley every Christian must work to avoid. Is Truth more important than relationship? or less? or yes?
I would venture to say that truth cannot be separated from relationships. That's when "truth" gets dangerous. And when relationships are separated from truth, they get dangerous too.
Spot on. My father was a man of integrity and deeply held convictions. He understood this, and demonstrated it, better than any man I have met since.
I find it interesting that there seems to be a false dichotomy between the two presented by Potter.
With regard to relationship, my own teacher (who is from a zen background but wrote a book on Christianity and zen and he himself wouldn’t say his teaching is “zen” but outside of label)
He himself said “All of life is relationship”
I think it’s fair to inquire as to whether Mr. Potter took zen all the way through to its ultimate realization
It’s not some lifeless thing and especially is not self centered. It’s ultimately the death of the self and what’s left is the clarity that all is God. There is still your human life and self but no separation between any of it. All phenomena are seen as expressions of God, some might use a different word but the words are irrelevant.
Meister eckhart was aware of this truth. Christianity and zen are not necessarily mutually exclusive. They have significant room for intermixing and I myself practice a great deal of both.
The view that you describe is perhaps the predominant interpretation of Zen. I think Potter’s interpretation is interesting precisely because it deviates from it, and in ways that are fairly unique, and that are not simply conceptual but arise out of a long life devoted to various spiritual paths. He might not have taken it “all the way”, but I don’t know many people who have, other than the Buddha. Still, I appreciate your reflections here.
Of all of the Christian paths, probably Orthodoxy and certain types of Catholic practice have some elements loosely similar to Zen, particularly the idea of “communion” with absolute reality. Communion isn’t quite “union”, but the aspect of experiential connection with an absolute is there. The book The Mountain of Silence by Kyriacos C. Markides is a good exploration of this side of Orthodoxy.
Anyway, thanks again for reading and commenting, Grant. I sometimes feel inclined to write more about this topic, but I worry it’s too abstract for many readers.
Thanks for the response! I’d love to hear more on this topic if you do choose to eventually publish something around it.
Are you familiar with the Christian sect of Hesychasm? I find this to be an interesting intersection. Name comes from Greek “Hesychia” meaning stillness or quiet. Stillness is often described as our true nature or at least a fundamental aspect of it, in zen
Edit: and to add, it’s not about as I said a self centeredness or isolation from life or any of that meaningless crap that sometimes gets peddled in nondual/advaita circles.
It’s actually, when lived, a total intimacy with all of life. A full inhabiting of one’s gift of Life.